Curse

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

There have been many threads about this, it would be useful to see the current actual statistical status of agreement for best solutions, in one place, so that something substantial and tangible may come of all the discussions. I believe this is more useful than a couple of very vocal people on either side of the 'argument' deciding what is and isnt fact, resulting in threads going round and round without actually getting anywhere definitively.

Premise - the current RA system is slightly flawed in such that some people can choose to circumnavigate the randomness that RA is supposed to include, for the purpose of attempting to gain points in a title track easier than should be possible.

Aim = improve enjoyment for players who don't like to experience intentional leavers, by reducing the incentive for people to leave, while balancing the reward for Title track advancment.

Options as gathered from the last months worth of threads:

1. Remove Gladiator Points from RA. Let it be quick and fun (and for beginners to PvP as was intended) without the potential of title grind griefers. (and also to promote the use of TA or give it more validity as lacasner says - i imagine it would then encourage more people to play in TA, and thus improve the environment there at the same time. )

2. Revise Gladiator Points Track (1 point per RA win but make title req x10 higher) - Thread

3. 3/5/10/x min lock out from re-entering battle after leaving a match early. - one Thread discussing this. Could have higher time lock out for leaving battle within the first 45 secs.

4. Prevent the use of 'm' while in a battle. Can't map out to reroll quickly and easily.

5. No changes, I like trying to get easier title points and dont care if it is at the expense of others. / It is currently the best possible system.

6. I dont care / I have no interest in ever playing RA. (yep, candy option, for people who feel the need to vote even if they have no interest in the topic, so it doesnt spoil the other vote counts :P)

7. Change RA to reward 1 Gladiator Point for each 30/40/50(?) non consecutive wins.

Other Ideas suggested since Poll Options posted

8. Turn RA into a seamless automated group of Leagues - ie you are matched against others with the same Gladiator rating as yourself.
(it would need to be instanced over all districts in an area most likely) post #12 in this thread - Credit to African War Lord.

9. Have a Hero replace a leaver.

------

Option number 7 idea is something i just thought of so it could do with discussion to critque and improve it.

RA is often said to be easier to get glad points in than in TA, hence the issue of people trying to farming them at the expense of other people.

Changing RA rewards to give 1 glad point for each 30/40/50 wins, would, i think, give incentive for all players to stay in each battle as their contribution to the team to win it advances thier own progression towards getting more glad points.

(Actual number of wins needed is best decided by long time players of RA to know what is a reasonable amount in comparison to a current streak of 10 consequtive wins in RA; and/or comparable to gaining Glad points in TA. I was making a best guess.)

Apologies if i missed someones alternate suggestion, there was a lot of posts to try and sift through.

edit - Personally i was thinking that removing Glad points from RA would be the simplest solution. I would support this, specifically as it would then encourage more people to play in TA, and thus improve the environment there at the same time.
However, in an attempt to try and redress the imbalance of glad point advancement (its easier in RA than in TA) i have chosen the last option of 1 point per x non consecutive wins; which i hope will be able to appease everyone. heh.

JeniM · Jul 17, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

I voted for 3 as i find leavers more annoying and as a mainly PvE'er i'm not bothered about the title, but i do think it's the high amount of consecutive wins needed that drive people to sync and quit so a 2nd vote would go to 7

Isileth · Jul 17, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

1) Perhaps the most simple and effective method, leaves RA as a place for new players and casual PvP.

2) 10 individual wins isnt even close to a run of 10. But apart from that I would see this being farmed and full of leavers still. Everything would turn very offensive just looking to roll poor teams, when a match against monks and Rts comes up I can see a lot of people leaving just because it would be quicker to re enter and find a weak team to slaughter.

3) There are far to many legit reasons to leave the game that shouldnt be punished, you have a runner, your team is all afk, your facing 4 monks or some other over deffensive team etc etc. No way you can have an automated system inplace that can determine who left for an acceptable reason.

4) Same reasons as above, to many reasons for a player to leave for a legit reason to stop them.

5) The current system is ok. Its not great, it deffinately has flaws that would be nice to have a soloution for. However any changes made shouldnt be at the expense of those who play the game as it was designed.

6) If you have no interest in RA does your vote carry any value anyways? Any changes wouldnt effect you so...kind of the pointless answer in the poll I suppose.

7) Carries the same problems as #2 just takes longer to get, but I still think not having to have a run of wins makes it a lot easier (perhaps not quicker but easier) as well as possibly causing problems with more people leaving. Come to think of it leechers would have it a lot easier with #2 and #7 as its unlikely a team would carry a player through 10 games, but they could deffinately win 1 game with only 3 players.

Edit

Might also be nice to have mods start locking down the countless RA problem threads and trying to get all the ideas in here? Would make everything a lot easier as well as save all the annoyance of having all the seperate posts everyday.

Navaros · Jul 17, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I suspect that a "lock out" or "can't map out" type of option may win this Poll since anti-leavers out-number leaves on this board. However, even if it wins the Poll, many of those voters probably didn't consider the big picture and just voted for these options out of their hate of leavers to try to mess with them. But if they consider the big picture they will realize that those options aren't going to help them.

If a "lock out" or "can't map out" type of option is implemented then the current leavers will simply adapt by casting no skills whatsoever and Leeroying into a quick death to circumvent those measures. Ticking off the leaver players to try to appease anti-leaver players is not going to make the leavers become cooperative.

Thus they would still not be helping teams they do not want to play with, and those measures would have accomplished absolutely nothing.

The only way to make everyone happy and therefore the only possible useful measure that would actually accomplish players cooperating together in RA, would be to revise the Gladiator title track so that some progress on it is made for each and every RA win.

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Having reflected on this for a while now, Navaros, I would agree with you.

There is an instant temptation for those of us who are "anti-leavers" as you call them ;P to do whatever can be done to stop people leaving selfishly...however...that does not address the issue as you have said and actually only adds to the fire.

I would urge all those who do not like people leaving their teams, to think about workable solutions which will try and remove the sense that some people feel the need to leave.

I can on one hand say its selfish, end of story. That may be impo..but it doesnt do a thing to help, so if i left my case at that, i would be useless. So id rather now look at the issue:

Some people play RA for fun / to learn about PvP. = Excellent, no probs.

Some people play RA because they think/realise that if they can get such and such a team they can farm Gladiator Points easier than by any other method.

This leads to conflict between both groups. Solution... address the fact that the ease of Glad point farming currently in RA is a big enough incentive for people to keep leaving/synching.

Either by: removing glad points from RA, revising Glad point Title Track, or by changing how and when Glad points are earnt in RA. Another solution?

To result in, as Navaros says, "actually accomplish players cooperating together in RA"

lacasner · Jul 17, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

I voted 1, just to give TA some validity.

African War Lord · Jul 17, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

When I first started playing this game, leavers pissed me off so much.. but now? man.. I see where they are coming from. I'm not going to fight with a naked warrior on my team.

Removing glad points from RA has been suggested alot and to that I say: then what's the point of going to RA? I'm playing there currently because I'll have something to show for it. I'm a mighty glad, gettin closer to deadly glad and if something happens where that is taken away then I can't see a reason to put up with the annoyance of playing in that arena.

One thing, this is a biased poll. Not enough options, only punishing people that leave for legitimate reasons like seeing mending being casted by your warrior. If I'm punished for that.. then again this arena loses what little appeal it has. Don't force me to play with an earth tank and mending warrior please.

I think there should be some benefit to the remaining team when someone leaves that's all. Be it something simple like a one-time life sheath over your team with the amount of HP that leaver had. Or make a new title, the underdog for victories shorthanded. or you get faction when he leaves I don't know but don't punish legit leavers who are the veterans of this game tired of playing with people that don't know what there doing. To that you'd say then don't play RA but RA is the only arena where you can click enter battle and be fighting in 30 seconds. Hero battles don't count lol.

Patrick Smit · Jul 17, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

I'm torn between 1 and 7. Syncing can be dealt with on a program basis, don't form teams from people within one district if district is almost empty (less then 10-20 trying to access).

probably 1 would be the best solution.

william1975 · Jul 17, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I voted 2 as it the easiest option for me, I never leave, and detest being in a team that does. I am a title hunter though and want to get glad points. having to get 10 consecutive wins is a real pain.

I have tired TA but its virtually empty whenever i go and i cant get in a team.

Now i voted for two because getting 40/50 nonconsecutive wins is an awful lot to get, if that had been say 20/30 then i would have voted for that.

the problem i see with 2 though is that you increase the title requirements it unfair on those playing TA.

however out of the options i see it as easiest for supressing the amount of people feeling its necessary to leave.

I do like the nonconsecutive wins, or as i and others suggested an actual reduction in the amount of consecutive wins needed, to say 5.

I myself have got numerous streaks of 4 to 8 wins

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

When I first started playing this game, leavers pissed me off so much.. but now? man.. I see where they are coming from. I'm not going to fight with a naked warrior on my team.

Thats the thing.. it is geared more for the new player to PvP and the relaxed quick game player. Think of yourself when you started... everytime you play there is likely to be a new player there now. I think we should be creatining an environment that encourages them to PvP, not get pissed off.
There is TA and HA (and HB?) for more experienced players as you wont tend to find inexperienced players there as much. I dont think we can all get what is intended to be got from RA AND for it to suit those looking for Glad points at the same time, without there being friction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

Removing glad points from RA has been suggested alot and to that I say: then what's the point of going to RA? ... if something happens where that is taken away then I can't see a reason to put up with the annoyance of playing in that arena.

The point for RA isnt going to suit everyone all the time. It simply cant, unless rewards are removed from it, to allow people to play purely for fun and no rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

One thing, this is a biased poll. Not enough options, only punishing people that leave for legitimate reasons like seeing mending being casted by your warrior. If I'm punished for that.. then again this arena loses what little appeal it has. Don't force me to play with an earth tank and mending warrior please.

Well, options 2,5,6 and 7 dont "punish" you. I thought hard to not make it a biased poll. The options come from suggestions around the forum recently with the 7th being an idea of my own.
The only point i wanted to clear up but i cant edit the poll is the wording of the 5th option - as i elaborated in the poll's post body, that is also for those who think the current system is as perfect as it can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by william 1975

Now i voted for two because getting 40/50 nonconsecutive wins is an awful lot to get, if that had been say 20/30 then i would have voted for that.

Yep..i wasnt sure what figure to put there, but wanted to put the general idea up as i havent seen it suggested before. Id be happy for a Mod to edit the 7th option to say 30/40/50 if you feel that 30 is a fairer number of wins to equal a point.

African War Lord · Jul 17, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawa

The point for RA isnt going to suit everyone all the time. It simply cant, unless rewards are removed from it, to allow people to play purely for fun and no rewards.

without rewards RA would be pointless. If everyone's argument is that RA is for noobs to learn then we need more arena's that offer quick fights that aren't geared towards beginners.

TA is often empty and it's just a pain to form groups there. It's even worse in HA. So RA is the only arena for quick access fighting.

I just had an idea. Arena's that scroll with the gladiator title track. so RA as it is now, anyone can join. Then there's RA2 where you need rank 1 glad to join. then RA3 for rank 2's and so on.. atleast then you can still have random teams with quick access but the competition will be higher and maybe RA won't be laughed at as much.

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

I just had an idea. Arena's that scroll with the gladiator title track. so RA as it is now, anyone can join. Then there's RA2 where you need rank 1 glad to join. then RA3 for rank 2's and so on.. atleast then you can still have random teams with quick access but the competition will be higher and maybe RA won't be laughed at as much.

If ANet could code this in, i agree with you that this would be a great idea

It would be like leagues or divisions in sports games but without the complexity of actual rankings. It could also be automatic. Nice one.

glountz · Jul 17, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Voted one.
If leavers are driven away to TA, then, perfect.
RA must stay a peaceful and stressless place. To people that will no more play in RA because of the lack of glad points, I say fine. You would have left most of your teams anyway.

Patrick Smit · Jul 17, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Nah i t would just result in a slower pace of play (dilution of player base), and people would still leave due absence of healer. In the end "bad builds" will also show up in here as they are not eliminated anymore in the lower level arenas.

In the end I voted option 7 due a post i read from navaro in another topic. But one would be equally well accepted by me.

Ecklipze · Jul 17, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

"No changes, I like trying to get easier title points at the expense of others"

Biased polls FTL.

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecklipze

"No changes, I like trying to get easier title points at the expense of others"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawa

The only point i wanted to clear up but i cant edit the poll is the wording of the 5th option - as i elaborated in the poll's post body, that is also for those who think the current system is as perfect as it can be.

As i have already explained, the wording of that is not complete. The titles of poll options cant be too long. The full titles are in the body of the post. The options i took from what everyone has already posted in the forums for the last month. They are not just my options.

Some people said they didnt want a change because they didnt want to loose the opportunity to gain easier glad points. In fact some people even went further to say that they wouldnt play RA at all if they couldnt keep getting the chance to get those easier glad points.

Some people said they didnt want a change because they either dont want to risk that change being negative in their eyes or because they cant think of a better solution.

It would have looked rather silly have 2 or 3 different "no changes" options. The 2 main stated reasons from people here on the forum for choosing "no change" option, are the 2 reasons i put in that options description...
Having "no changes" on its own is not a useful option either as it goes no way towards dealing with the issues. I think it is safe to state that there are issues. a) with leavers and linked to this b) with glad points being easier in RA than in TA, thus causing another issue right there.

If you had for a moment longer thought of the time and consideration gone into such a poll for it to be balanced on such a contentious issue, maybe you wouldnt be so flippant with your "Biased polls FTL." post.

edit - thanks Chief for kindly edited for me, the number of wins required for option 7, and the wording of option 5 just to make it absolutely clear there is no bias.

Div · Jul 17, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

The lock is probably the best solution. Changing the title track isn't as feasible since it's already implemented.

By the way, the req for gladiator if it turns into 1 point per win has to be much higher, since it's MUCH easier to get 10 wins than 10 wins in a row...

william1975 · Jul 17, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

/bump

trying to prevent this from disapearing its a damn useful thread that i hope the devs see

MrFuzzles · Jul 17, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I'm in favor of removing glad titles from RA.

The problem as I see it, is that there is a conflict between people who enjoy random pvp and people who enjoy grinding titles.
"Forcing" the latter to stay in a team they aren't happy with is not going to work. They will be unhappy and some might possibly resort other ways to speed up the process of getting in a better team (taking off their armor, forcing a disconnect, whatever).

I think the best solution is to separate those who just want to pvp for the sake of it from those who want to pvp competitively and for a "goal". The best way to do that - imo - is to remove glad titles from RA.

And before I get flamed for enjoying pvp even though I don't care about titles - no, I do not enjoy losing 3v4's, nor do I enjoy winning 4v3's, nor do I enjoy spending something that feels like up to half an hour leaving myself because my team has a leaver in it 6 times in a row.

I do not agree that asymmetrical matches should be included in the term "random". I do not agree that leaving repeatedly until you get in a monk or "good" team is random.

master_of_puppets · Jul 18, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

What should have been done is two separate title tracks, one title for winning in RA that gives little additional faction cap, and one for winning in TA which gives more and possibly an emote, but its far too late for that now.

Had to vote for 5, because I still think the amount of leavers is way exaggerated, especially those that leave from no monk. And this "expense of others" is only that the people have to spend 30 seconds getting back in, its not like they lose anything, and if there was a legitimate reason for leaving then chances are high they would have lost.

1)too late for that now, a lot of people who already farmed many glad points in RA could just say they for it from Ta etc.

2)this would not stop leavers at all, as some1 above explained

3)people would just go afk if they wanted to leave, not a huge difference between fighting with a leaver, and an afk. Also there are many legitimate reasons to leave, such as over-defensive teams, runners, idiots, your team is out of rezzes, etc

4)again people would just go afk, or quit the game with "x"

7) Bad change and it wouldn't stop leavers